Whats the best water softener/conditioner value out there?
I seem to get more confused the more I research getting a water softener/conditioner for my home. My question is who can you trust, and whos equipment is worth the money? I am not interested in initial cost, but instead the total investment value.....ie, the quality/longevity and performance of the unit I select.....I was considering getting a Kinetico Quadra Flo System, and wondered if anyone can give me an opinion on if its worth the $$? I have talked to budgetwater.com and they assure me that they have the same level of quality at a much better price....they use structural tanks, Purolite resin and fleck valves.....all my research shows that these are good products, but is it on the same level? Am I paying more for the brand name of Kinetico? I also have Culligan coming out to test my water tomorrow. Any insight on their products and how they stack up? Thanks for any and all input given..... If you don't have a proven need for a twin tank softener (two resin tanks and a salt tank), why buy one when you end up with all but two softeners and can only use one at a time? As to the(ir) claim of non-electric being better... the electric used by a softener is less than a dollar per year but you pick up the additional power that water power can't deliver if needed. A proven need for a twin tank model is shift work or other reason you can't go without water from 2 AM to about 3:30 AM those nights the softener does a regeneration. IMO the best control valve is a Clack WS-1. It is excellent for the DIYer that would replace a part to repair their control valve if needed. It comes apart with a common screw driver and pliers if you don't have the little wrench that fits every nut on it. It has another nice feature, soft water brine refill which keeps the salt tank much cleaner than raw water would. Most Fleck control valves require special tools for some of the parts (seals and spacers) that usually require repair. Those tools are control specific and can range up to $100. The Clack WS-1 is patterned on the famous Fleck 5600, an excellent control valve, but operates more like the equally famous Fleck 2500 and 2510 control valves. Another excellent control valve is the newest Fleck control valve, the 7000. It comes apart very easily too with no special tools but may ned them for the seals and spacers while it too has soft water brine refill. Plus it has variable brine and variable reserve. It is meant to compete with the Clack WS-1. The WS-1 is a full ported 1 valve and the 7000 is full ported 1 or with the larger distributor tube, 1.25. You would save substantial money by buying other than either of the two national brand name softeners you mentioned. You'll also get equal and in many cases better quality but, anyone can service the nonproprietary while only name brand dealers can service the others. And there's no comparision when comparing the quality of the big box store offerings. So what is your hardness and iron content? How many people in the family? City or your own well water? Gary Slusser The Culligan guy was out today and tested the water. Its 10 grains. I am on City water so I had the report printed out from the website online. There is no iron, and the Culligan Rep said the amount of Chlorine isn't an issue. I am at the house full time and my girls are at the house everyday after school and at least one weekend day. Obviously I have been shopping/researching in vain, but I guess you learn as you go. The one thing I was not happy to learn about, is they have to tap the water main and then trench in pipe to the garage, or where ever I chose to have it located. (Texas is the land of no basements). So, That expense alone is not fun to think about. Even though I am posting on a do it yourself website, I am far from a do it yourself guy. I guess I should state I have '2' girls for a little more accurate account of people in the house. You size a softener by the compensated hardness it has to deal with, in your case the 10 gpg, and then the SFR (service flow rate) required to be treated by the softener which is based on the flow rate of the plumbing the unit will be installed on. A 1 cuft unit has a SFR of 9 gpm which means that if the water flow through the unit is above that you won't remove all the hardness. And that depends on the size of the plumbing and then the peak demand fow rate of the plumbing. Anyway, your trench doesn't have to be very deep in TX but that digging will still be a large expense of installing a softener. So paying less for the softener is critical. You can buy over the internet and hire the installation done which would save hundreds of dollars if not more just on the price of the softener. And you get a better quality softener that anyone can service if needed rather than being locked into one dealer with proprietary parts. Gary Slusser Thanks for your advice and what you said makes the most sense with getting a softener online etc.....I guess the first step will be getting an estimate for running the water line......I am thinking that to save money, I could work with someone and dig the trench myself, and then have them come in with the pipe and hook things up....that would definately cut into some of the expense of things. (at least I hope it will) After reading some of the threads on which is the best water softener to buy I feel like I know a little more about them. I am looking seriously at a waterboss 700. I've been to Home Depot and received different opinions from different employees there. The first gentleman I spoke with claimed to have been a plumber for over 20 years and strongly recommended the waterboss. He stated it is shorter (hence easier to fill) and uses less water and salt per regeneration. Another employee said you have to fill them more often and they regenerate more because of their smaller size. I checked consumer reports and they did an evaluation back in Jan. of 1990. I'm sure that article is a little outdated by now. So far I am still looking at the waterboss but would like more opinions from waterboss users and the pro's and con's of the unit. Both of those guys are telling you the truth. I'll tell you that it's hard to find someone to work on the big box store brands. As to quality, you can't buy better quality than you can from an independent water treatment dealer selling softeners using the Clack WS-1, Fleck and Autotrol line of control valves. They are non-proprietary and the highest quality there is. Using CR you won't find 10% of the softeners on the market. Fleck makes the most control valves in the world (from 3/4 residential to 3 industrial) and if you haven't heard of them your education is just beginning. Gary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Company Name Removed Only Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2 Hi Gary, Sorry for the ignorance on my part, but I'm researching buying a water softener system and don't know who independent water treatment dealers are. Do you know of any reputable ones in the San Diego, CA area? Thanks, Todd Sorry I kenw one guy there but have had a bad experience with him and I don't know anyone else there. Independent dealers are those selling softeners/filters with stock Clack Fleck and Autotrol control valves. All others will be selling proprietary regional and/or national brand names usually as a franchisee or exclusive territory type dealer. So call those without national brand names in their ads and ask what control valves they sell. Gary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Company Name Removed Only Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2 I too have been researching water conditioners and most questions have been answered. I have discovered that a large percentage of sales people really don't understand the technology behind the product. It seams that the general arrangement of most models fall into one of two categories. In one style, the resin tank and regeneration salt reservoir are two separate tanks while the other has the resin tank mounted inside the salt tank. The second design might appear to be more compact and look nicer but I have a concern about corrosion. Salt solution is very corrosive, that is why my car gets eaten in the winter by road salt. For the two separate tank design, the internal surface of the resin tank is exposed to salt solution only intermittently while the outside is never exposed to salt. In the one-tank-inside-the-other configuration, the resin tank is soaking in salt solution 100% of the time. This doesn't look like a good idea to me. However, I did note that the resin tanks all look like they have a heavy duty resin coating on the exterior. Is corrosion a concern in this case? Second question, what is the normal life of the resin bed? Is it ever necessary to replace the resin bed itself? Do people replace the resin or do they normally just replace the whole system? I got all sorts of weird looks for the sales people when I asked that one. I would appreciate any help you can offer Two tanks models are the norm, only big box mass marketed softeners come standard as cabinet models. I think it's meant to make them 'different' and somehow 'better'. They are different but it's not a good thing when it comes to working on them. The two tank models are much better to work on and the salt environment isnt all that good for electronnics and metals. There is no corrosion of fiberglass by it being in salt water so salt water on the outside of the resin tank is not a problem. Cabinet models are onoy used when there is a space restriction. Resin can last indefinately but, friction wear from backwashing etc., chlorine, iron etc. shortens its life but that depends on how much chlorine and if iron is allowed to foul the resin. So on average, resin life should be 10-20 years but then that depends on the quality of the resin also. Cheap imported resins probably won't last as long as homegrown. Most people replace the softener rather than rebuild them with new resin or a new control valve etc.. Most dealers will want to replace rather than rebuild or repiar unless it is the 'brand' they sell. Softeners etc. are made of various name brand components and all are easily replaced. I've rebuilt and/or upgraded many softeners/filters over the years and it's usually much cheaper than replaciing. If you're handy rather than good looking, you can DIY. Some god looking guys do it too. You can't expect sales clerks to know much more than sales. They aren't trained to know more and they don't sell component parts. Many of those places don't service what they sell either, so they wouldn't know component parts. Check out the water softening/treatment/conditioning industry for solid information. Gary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Company Name Removed Only Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2 I have a WaterBoss model 900 softener and i love it.Very compact,built in self cleaning water filter,on demend feature, and VERY ECONOMICAL. Our water hardness here is 16 grain. Most importantly it is priced right. I wish you good luck, Bela WB is a pretty good softener for city water, on well water with iron they are not a good choice IMO. There are many web sites selling softeners of equal and higher quality for the same price as big box stores. In some cases their prices are lower. And all of them are nonproprietary. Gary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Company Name Removed Only Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2 Gary, how do you feel about a Doulton water conditioner? Would you consider it a 'softener'? Thanks. - Eileen As far as I know Doultan is from the UK and is a large manufacturer of ceramic cartrdige filters. Yu have to be careful of cutsie marketing/names.... A conditioner is usually a softener with some other mineral/media on top of the cation resin. If they have a softener, I doubt they are manufacturing it but give me a url to visit so I know what they are calling a conditioner. Gary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Company Name Removed Only Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2 Gary, here is the site I have bookmarked. I have a Doulton countertop unit - the Nimrod and it's a great drinking water unit. What I'm looking at now though is soft water for the whole house. Thank you. http://doultonusa.com/commercial_ind...ve_filters.htm They are very expensive and have other things than softener resin in a number of them. From a service point of view, that's not good, many dealers (they dont have dealers/service) won't know what is in the tank and will replace it with resin only. Mixing different types of treatment in a softener is really a bad idea. They will all need replacement at some point in the future and that will be long bfore the resin needs to be replaced. If you need other treatment, it is best to have a separate treatmetn than to combine them in a softener. Trust me on that, I know what I'm talking about. You pay a premium price to purchase and then more to maintain/operate it whil those other things usually cause water quality problems and that's how you find out it isn't a good idea to combine treatments in a softener. Do you need a Turbulator? They are used for heavy iron water. Heavy being say 3 ppm plus. Do a google search for Clack WS-1 with the and check out other prices for basically the same softener. Silver impregnated.... is a bacteriostatic not biocide. In other words, it does not kill bacteria such as a disinfectant. There are a number of misstatements or should I say at best incorrect statements, on their web site. They are heavily into marketing so a word to the wise, beware. Gary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Company Name Removed Only Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2 How about this water softener system? h2odistributors 56SEM-R-48. It comes with Fleck 5600 SE meter along with fine mesh resin made from resintech. I hope this system is great one since this is what I ordered and will be installing at my new house this friday. My house has well water and the hardness is 17 grain with .5 PPM for iron. The 5600 is a very good control valve but it is a 3/4 ported valve, and requires special expensive tools to be able to replace the wearable parts; the seals and spacers. The Clack WS-1 was invented by the guy that invented the 5600 (28 years with Fleck IIRC, another guy with 22 and another with 18) and it was designed to directly compete with Fleck controls which it beats hands down. It is very user friendly, parts cost less than Fleck parts and it needs nothing but a common screw driver to work on (if you don't have their $5 plastic wrench that fits every nut on it). It has soft water brine refill and is a full 1 ported control. The weak points of the 5600 have been designed out of it. Now Fleck has designed a control, the 7000, to compete with the Clack WS-1. It is a bit harder to work on and it has soft water brine refill plus variable brining and variable reserve and comes apart with a common screw driver. So ya did good but coulda done a lot better for just a few more bucks. Which one service call and repair and those bucks plus more will be spent. Sorry. Gary xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Company Name Removed Only Doug Aleshire, Super Moderator 2 Originally Posted by Gary Slusser The 5600 is a very good control valve but it is a 3/4 ported valve, and requires special expensive tools to be able to replace the wearable parts; the seals and spacers. The Clack WS-1 was invented by the guy that invented the 5600 (28 years with Fleck IIRC, another guy with 22 and another with 18) and it was designed to directly compete with Fleck controls which it beats hands down. It is very user friendly, parts cost less than Fleck parts and it needs nothing but a common screw driver to work on (if you don't have their $5 plastic wrench that fits every nut on it). It has soft water brine refill and is a full 1 ported control. The weak points of the 5600 have been designed out of it. Now Fleck has designed a control, the 7000, to compete with the Clack WS-1. It is a bit harder to work on and it has soft water brine refill plus variable brining and variable reserve and comes apart with a common screw driver. So ya did good but coulda done a lot better for just a few more bucks. Which one service call and repair and those bucks plus more will be spent. Sorry. Gary Quality Water Associates I installed the system with help from my friend. We didn't need special tools or anything. And it works really well. Water came out really well and slimy feeling. My wife and I couldn't be more happier with it. Cheers. Measel As one of the nationally-known dealers, it should come as no suprise for me to say my models are a great value. With that being said, I recommend taking a look at what's important in your case...the standard water quality issues in your area (the Culligan sales rep said Chlorine levels were not too high - what were they?, how close to the maximum contaminate levels for specific areas of interest are yours?, etc), budget, sizing, serviceability reliability of a system you prefer, efficiency of a system, and then the choice of a softener vs. conditioner. Fleck valves do differ in some features as well as warranty matters but are the very best in the business and are very easy to work on. Lastly, some dealers like ourselves do not employ commissioned sales reps which lends them to a higher level of expertise and service/response because we are not going anywhere anytime soon. Other types of companies experience high turnover; therefore, decreasing the opportunity for that personal relationship. For example, since my customers are essentially paying for my kid's college education, I'm always available and we provide 24hr service. A big box retailer probably won't return a emergency call at 10pm on a Sunday. I always recommend potential customers check out all contractor's license status' (i.e. never been suspended), BBB reports, workman's comp/liability/bonding up to date - including ours, prior to making a decision. Hope this helps. Art I have a Watertech valve. I've replaced the clock motor - it burned out after one regeneration. My serviceman suggests I replace it with an Autotrol rather than attempt to rebuild the existing 10 year old unit. Any suggestions? Originally Posted by Harold Young I have a Watertech valve. I've replaced the clock motor - it burned out after one regeneration. My serviceman suggests I replace it with an Autotrol rather than attempt to rebuild the existing 10 year old unit. Any suggestions? I hoped you checked the voltage etc.. Watertech... I can't remember specifics about them and what control valve they use but... by the time you put a new control on it, and with Autotrol, the inlet is on the left rear, while most everyone else comes in on the right rear, so the plumbing may have to be totally redone; you might want to replace the resin too and then IMO you should buy a new softener over the internet and install it your self or hire it done. As to which softener, here's what I just posted in another thread asking aobut the best softener. Softeners are made by combining a number of various component parts. A resin tank, brine tank, resin, gravel underbed (in quality softeners), a control valve, brine pickup tube, maybe a brine well, well cap and float controlled safety brine valve system (in quality softeners), brine tubing and drain line tubing. IMO, the quality of the control valve is critical. It has all the moving parts that can wear. break etc.. Note that many softeners do not have a safety brine system, and some of those without one have full line water pressure on the brine line between regenerations, IMO a very poor design that can lead to a serious water leak. In my opinion, the higher quality control valve relates to the best softener and that is sized correctly, is the one that works service free the longest. Autotrol, Clack and Fleck are the controls used on most softeners all the way to 1.5 in/outlets with Fleck going up to 3 industrial sized control valves. They all have the same piston, seals and spacer design. Clack's controls are all designed by ex-Fleck engineers, and one of them with 28 years at Fleck, invented the world's most popular control valve, the Fleck 5600. The problem with most of the Fleck valves is that to replace the piston, seals and spacers, you need control valve specific special tools. All the spacers and seals come out of the Clack in one module with no tools needed. The Fleck 7000 does not require tools either but the seals and spacers come out one at a time; there 5-6 seals separated by 4-5 spacers. Autotrol has up to 7 flapper valve discs operated by cams on a cam shaft. I consider the Clack to be the best control for a DIYer that twill replace a part if needed. Many web sites and local dealers sell water treatment equipment using all these controls. I have well water that has an iron odor and is not very hard about 10 grains from rainsoft water test( he wanted me to purchase a rainsoft system for 4000. I am looking for a budget water system that will last a good while andwondered what you thought about this system F-R32-70SEM. it is only 465.00 from this site http://store.qualitywaterforless.com...FRmCkwodeinJTg Thanks SSgt Wheeler USAF SSgt, First, your question will get more attention if you start a new thread rather than hanging your question on a 4 year old thread. Second, in order to speak intelligently regarding water treatment we need more info. You need a comprehensive water test from a certified lab. Treating well water is more complicated than living on a municipal water system. You are responsible for making the water nice AND safe. Testing for hardness, iron, manganese, TDS, PH, bacteria are the minimum you should test for. We also need to know... # of people in the house # of bathrooms any water hogging appliances like a hot tub or Jaccuzi SFR of the plumbing With all that info we can help you determine the correct size of the softener you need. Then you can shop for quality, service (before and after the sale), and price. Wanted to add my 2 cents on the best water softener equipment. I currently own a Clack WS1 and have found out the hard way that you need to purchase from a reliable distributor. The distributor I purchased my Clack WS1 from has gone out of business. I've had problems with the equipment, specifically the control valve, and attempted to contact Clack to see how I could get service under the warranty. Clack has ignored me completely and will not even communite with me. I guess I've learned the hard way that researching both the equipment and the distributor is important. I just spent $250 with an independent repair person to get my 2 year old Clack crap working again. If I had know it would be that much to repair I would have replaced my Clack crap with a Fleck 5600 which has a great reputation. As for the next time the Clack crap has problems I'll dump it in the trash where it belongs and by Fleck. In my humble opinion - I would not purchase Clack, I'd buy Fleck! Sorry you have had so much trouble. But I guess that's why I preach Fleck 5600. Originally Posted by txgrubb Wanted to add my 2 cents on the best water softener equipment. I currently own a Clack WS1 and have found out the hard way that you need to purchase from a reliable distributor. The distributor I purchased my Clack WS1 from has gone out of business. I've had problems with the equipment, specifically the control valve, and attempted to contact Clack to see how I could get service under the warranty. Clack has ignored me completely and will not even communite with me. I guess I've learned the hard way that researching both the equipment and the distributor is important. I just spent $250 with an independent repair person to get my 2 year old Clack crap working again. If I had know it would be that much to repair I would have replaced my Clack crap with a Fleck 5600 which has a great reputation. As for the next time the Clack crap has problems I'll dump it in the trash where it belongs and by Fleck. In my humble opinion - I would not purchase Clack, I'd buy Fleck! It is good to have a dealer with time under his belt. No matter how cheap something is, if yu can't get service, then you are on your own. Others may offer to help, but may not honor a warranty they didn't provide. Online dealers can be that way as a matter of course. Clack is a good valve but if you can't get it fixed, then it is only as good as its workability. What went wrong with it? Was it an electronic problem? Andy Christensen, CWS-II I have had Culligan Kinetico out to the house. I also contacted Budget water, all 3 use salt based water softner systems. My water is ahardness of 33 grains, less than 1 of Iron. I just can't see paying $5,700 for a Kinectico system + RO or paying the $4,300 for Culligan. Budgetwater has the same 60K unit + RO for $1,300 delivered. Warranties are about the same. So I need to pay for installtion $550 for the Budgetwater system. Now I hear about the Pelican Ion softner, same cost as the Budget water but no need for salt or a RO + no waste water or dumping of salt at recharge time. How good isthe Pelican syaytem? I would like to hear something so I can decide on which way to go. Pelican ION softener is not a softener. Big mistake if they are telling you it is because that is fraudulent. They know better that.
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