Basic Buderus replacement questions
Greetings! Such wise advice is dispensed here, I thought I would ask a few questions about our plan to replace a boiler. This will be sort of long and windy, but I suspect you guys will need the whole spiel. The background: We use two boilers to heat our home which is a huge 18th century stone farmhouse in SE PA. One side is a 1990s frame addition which is radiant heat fired by an oil Viessman. Burns some serious fuel based on square footage and tons of glass, but is a comfortable system. The old side is very very poorly insulated; 2 foot thick stone walls with 0 insulation, 3 doors, 1740s windows (with new wooden storms) etc. It's currently heated with a 30 year old 125K Weil McClain with hydronic baseboard. The decent heat loss programs now available on line indicate 120K heat loss for the old side Last few years it's been a struggle to keep the WMcC running, this year there's a new leak at the circulator flange and frankly, the thing is really a pig on fuel. My service company quoted just over 10K for either a Buderus and just over 11 for a EK2000 system. There are 6 zones on this system, 4 of which are used daily. 1 is a partially abandoned workshop where some pipes are under slab, 1 is a third floor bedroom suite which we don't current use, but might some day as the kids get older. There is an 80 gallon electric DHW heater that I plan to leave as an emergency standby plan. The family is 5, but we never run out of hot water now with a standard 80gal. tank. The plan: The bids are crazy high, especially now that I know I can get the boiler in the $2300 ish range. PEX supply is my frame of reference and I've ordered some small parts from them over the years for radiant (Wirsbo/Uphonor stuff). I want to bring this set up in for 6-7K max. Based on my Viessman experience, I'm leaning strongly towards a Buderus W115ws/5 vented through a nice chimney setup, an indirect DHW and the 2107 logamatic. The 5 indicates 136K output through a chimney. My basic questions: Do I need a bigger indirect than the S120? Should I plan on setting up with a higher temp and a mixing valve? How big is the fuel penalty to size for all zones but only using 4 90% of the time? The old boiler cycled often on warmer days, but worked pretty hard on cold days. Will the indirect system make the 5 a necessity anyway? Are these Buderus so complicated that only a factory trained guy is critical? My plumbers are very smart guys and want to do the install. They're doing several boiler installs a month and I believe they'll be more responsive down the road than any moonlighting Buderus pro I could find. I assume that companies that sell new systems are not too interested in customer supplied boiler installs...especially in October. I completely understand the need for these guys to make a living with their overhead etc., but the extra thousands just aren't doable for me. My piping system needs some revisions in my opinion, not major, but some. Finally, many of my thermostats on this side date to the honeywell round era...is it important to update these in light of the logamatic plan? I'm guessing some sophisticated programming for the school hours/weekend different heat needs might save some fuel dollars. Could someone kindly recommend a great easy to program stat? Gang, I am sorry to post such a ridiculously long post here, but I don't have anyone to turn to for advice that doesn't want to vaccuum my wallet. Your replies will be sincerely appreciated. Josh There's lots to be talked about here... First off, I personally would be leary of using the local gas utility to install a boiler, based on what I've seen from other utility installs. But, you said service company and maybe you don't mean the utility? Here in central NJ, 10K for a boiler and indirect is not too far off the mark. Prices vary widely in different regions. Get at least 6 quotes before you do any deciding. Make sure that any chimney issues are addressed. You may need to have the chimney lined, and that can be a significant added expense. Reduce your heat loss as much as possible. Insulation and sealing infiltration are the best money you can spend when trying to reduce fuel useage. Start with at least R40 in the attic. Do I need a bigger indirect than the S120? Probably not... Should I plan on setting up with a higher temp and a mixing valve? Probably... in fact, most local codes now require a mixing/tempering valve on the water heater. Are these Buderus so complicated that only a factory trained guy is critical? I don't think so, as far as the actual installation goes, but you might be hard pressed to find someone who actually UNDERSTANDS the control. Could someone kindly recommend a great easy to program stat? Get a Chevy... no, a Ford, There are lots of good thermostats, and a few 'stinkers'. The Honeywell offerings are pretty good... check out the 'VisionPro' stuff. And shop around. The system will work with the old t'stats, the new ones may tend to keep the temp more constant though. Over in the Thermostat forum, Jay11 is the t'stat guru. Might ask there. I just received a quote for the same Buderus configuration for $7429.00, which I signed a contract for. The largest quote was from my Oil Company. ($11,583). Big Company ... Lots of Employees......... and a Salesman to Pay............ They also quoted a 215 rather than a 115...... Bigger means more OIL to sell. I also got a quote for a UTICA TRI-FIRE for $7450 from a plumber. I could tell that's what he was comfortable with.... I really wanted a BUDERUS. My BUDERUS quote was from a Mechanical Services company. Mom and Pop operation. They will also do the job in one day rather than 2 as quoted by the others. Get more quotes, you'll know when you have the right guy......... Also, spoke with BUDERUS. The initial setup with the LOGOMATIC is no big deal. It comes with a manual for Homeowner programming that's very user friendly. I researched this to death. BUDERUS is the way to go. I haven't found anything negative about it......... Installing on 11/3. I'll let you know how it goes, if you haven't jumped yet. I recently installed a Buderus G124X/32II with a Logomatic last winter and last weekend I retired my standalone gas water heater (12 Years old) and switched over to the Buderus indirect storage. Both installations went well and I did the entire installation by myself (I'm an electrical engineer). My advise with regards to programming the Logmatic is don't let you room theromstats swing more than 5 degrees; otherwise, the boiler will take for ever to recover. Hint: Recovery can only happen on the day curve and the night curve is used to just maintain the current temperature. Also, the Logmatic has two curves which they call day and night settings. Your theromstat setback or schedules should match the time schedules of the Logomatic. Overall, when comparing my gas usage from the previous years, I'm using about 25% less gas even though last winter was colder. Can you explain the term RECOVERY. Does it relate to the Hot Water heater recovery or something else. We do have a programmable thermostat on our Main floor zone that we setback to 60 at night and when we are at work, and then bring back to 68 both in the morning, and then after work. How will this affect the BUDERUS. Do I have the option on the LOGOMATIC to do something similiar, or do I have to adjust my thermostat program. Thanks While we're waiting for gvernt to answer... it sounds to me as though he is talking about recovery of the space heating here. In other words, how long it takes the system to 'recover' from the night setback. I happen to be one of those neanderthals that doesn't really believe in large nightime and unoccupied setback schedules, in spite of what the majority of the world believes, but I do have my reasons! (even if they may be flawed!) The Logomatic has two curves which they call day and night. The difference (0-10F) between the two curvers are adjustable by the end user. You will find that the day curve or upper curve the buderus will run hotter versus the lower curve. I have my thermostats during the week to raise the temperature during the two periods of the day; in the morning and when I return from work in the evening. The Buderus schedule follows my room theormstats. Yes, the logomatic has a clock, day of week and several break points as two which curve it should follow. When I'm not home or sleeping I have run at the lower curve which saves $$$. But running at the lower curve you will not be able to increase the house temperature (i.e., recover from a setback). Yes, The logomatic has a clock, day of week and break points as to which curve it should follow. Note: If you don't have any setback thermostat(s), no problem, just program the logomatic to use the lower curve when your not home or sleeping.
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